Fittings Saftey

[bt1]

Hello all,

I've been reading a few posts about some recent builds.

More than a little alarmed to hear terms like "lead free brass" fittings being used. Clearly there's little or no understanding of the standards relating to these mtls.
Lead free does not mean an absense of lead.

If you think for a minute that an imported (including US fittings) have no lead content them think again. Addtionally if you think the Australian standards are any better guess again..they are based purly on US based standards.

Can't stress enough how serious lead in high temp ethanol production is. Just don't use it regardless of the "lead free" bullshit tag.


bt1

[Sam.]

Is there any hard evidence of people getting lead poisoning from using brass in the vapor path of stills?

[victorski]

Is there any hard evidence of people getting lead poisoning from using brass in the vapor path of stills?

Of course there is, Kimbo is a prime example! ;-) He did not always look like his new avatar! :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling: 8-} 8-}

[MacStill]

Hello all,

I've been reading a few posts about some recent builds.

More than a little alarmed to hear terms like "lead free brass" fittings being used. Clearly there's little or no understanding of the standards relating to these mtls.
Lead free does not mean an absense of lead.

If you think for a minute that an imported (including US fittings) have no lead content them think again. Addtionally if you think the Australian standards are any better guess again..they are based purly on US based standards.

Can't stress enough how serious lead in high temp ethanol production is. Just don't use it regardless of the "lead free" bullshit tag.


bt1

Sounds like you quoted that straight from HD :laughing-rolling:

Did you search this site for our discussions on brass?

How about the dangers of drinking ethanol ?

Blah blah blah :))

[bt1]

Hard evidence from an illegal process...perhaps the better question is there hard evidence for lead poisoning...

Mac have a browse through build threads and discover this new miricale mtl "lead free brass"..

bt1

[Sam.]

The brass fittings I use from Reece are made for potable application. If there is lead in it it is a minute quantity and I probably absorbed more lead from the super fuel days than I ever will from my still and unless someone can show me data from lab tests in spirit produced from a still containing lead then I am not overly concerned. Hasn't killed me or anyone else I know doing the same

[MacStill]

Hard evidence from an illegal process...perhaps the better question is there hard evidence for lead poisoning...

Mac have a browse through build threads and discover this new miricale mtl "lead free brass"..

bt1

Don't come here and start telling me to go read shit, you're making claims and warning people so you provide the documented proof to back up your claims..... We don't take the shock and awe tactics of HD seriously here, things work a little different here.

Just because you say so doesnt prove anything, neither do a heap of rhetorical posts elsewhere ;-)

I have no problem using brass, or alcohol, preservatives,I smoke, and drink beer, drive a car..... They are all informed decisions I make that have risks, like most things in life.

;-)

[R-sole]

One thing you could do to make yourself sound a little less chickenlittle bt1 is to seperate theskt is falling claims from downstream and upstream.

By which i mean, do you believe that lead (one of the heaviest elements there is) is going to seperate somehow from a ballvalve in the boiler, travel up through a packed column and then somehow going to infest our bodies?

or are you saying that lead in a barrell union on the downsloping lyne arm is going t do the same thing?


LittleBitMoreSpecificPleaseChickenLittlePunkin

[Cane Toad]

+1Mac & +1Punkin,everyone on THIS forum,let me rephrase that,most people,that follow this forum,are aware of the risks involved in this hobby,be it from the product that we produce,which IMOH is far superior to the shit that is sold off the shelf,or from the way that it is made!
If the minute quantity of lead that may or may not be present in some of the fittings that we use is gunna cause us irrepairable damage then I'm gunna stop fishing,handling lead sinkers,which I make myself,I may add.I'll also stop making and using the projectiles I use in the 444 marlin and the .50 Alaska.
Let's leave the scaremongering at HD where it belongs.
Not having a shot at you,(pardon the pun :laughing-rolling:)but we all make our own choices in life mate,and I'm sure we make these with our own and others welfair in mind :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[bt1]

Blokes,

I'm not trying to stir the pot here and there's no HD influence here beleieve me.

My reason for posting is soley to point out that the term "lead free brass" is not as it sounds, lead free. I understand the issues about personal risk levels. Fair point.

I had thought,(now reconsdering ever raising it...) that if theres an avoiable risk or best practice we should raise it yes?
I'm reasonbly sure we can assist new folk to the craft by advising of the issues with specific mtls. I mean we clearly advise against plastics?

The standards are based around drinking water. Many authorites including our own EPA legislate/restrict lead content The EPA relies on the US standard here. If several months ago you said to me lead free I'd take that as it sounds but that not the case.

Part of it states....
(d) "Lead free" defined
For purposes of this section, the term "lead free" -
(1) when used with respect to solders and flux refers to
solders and flux containing not more than 0.2 percent lead;
(2) when used with respect to pipes and pipe fittings refers to
pipes and pipe fittings containing not more than 8.0 percent
lead;

I'm not a chemist so I can't tell you the chemical prosesses around lead leaching, so how it leaches/disolves I need to rely on those that do. I know it's a risk as it is not chemically stable in water let alone high temp ethanol.

My reason for posting initially had nothing to do with distilling at all. I've been looking into lead related issues for a few months now because I have an uncle who has diagnosed lead related issues...ask BHP about Port Pirie in SA...

http://www.lead.org.au/bblp/Ceiling-Dust/tsld004.htm
http://www.health.sa.gov.au/pehs/branches/branch-ptpirie.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-24/blood-lead-levels-rise-in-port-pirie/4031928
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/lead-poisoning-fears-as-unsafe-levels-in-port-pirie-children-rise/story-e6freol3-1226365596381

I've about 20 links to lead issues I've added a couple here cos they're more relevant I guess...

http://www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/regulation.htm
This one holds the Aust standard and the two revisions for fittings/plumbing. It also has links to public water supply notices etc. There's couple of good related articles re best practice, repairs, domestic supplies. There's aslo a link to current Australian water supply problems which might surpirse a few folk.

http://www.nsf.org/business/water_distribution/faq.asp#lead
US backgrounders as they hold 2 stds...Btw if the califorina std was adopted there'd be no a reduced problem...

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/42/6A/XII/B/300g-6
The US last revision on lead i.e. the std we adopt

I'd raised the issue with best of intentions. Fact! If that's not ok then I don't know what is.

bt1

[Sam.]

Port pirie smelters is a little different to using a brass fitting with fuck all if any lead in it. Again get one of these fittings or the spirit produced from it tested then I will believe it.

As a generalization I am fucking sick of this this risk adverse, scared of everything because it is going to kill you society.

If all this shit was so bad then why are there not more tall stories about hicks dying from lead poising?

Apparently the only ill effect was going blind or jake leg which are both accounted for and no relation with lead.

[torry73]

You probably have more to worry about if you renovate an old house with all the lead based paint that was used years ago. It is still in some paints now but it is white lead not red lead, but it is still lead and it was also used in automotive paints. So what is wrong with pickling the brass fittings, I thought that was supposed to remove the surface lead. If you are really worried about the lead get a blood test every year, I did when I was spraying lead based paints and I have not suffered.

[R-sole]

You are completely in the right to post a warning about a suspected danger bt1 if that is what you want to do. I suspect if you had posted the second post with links and figures in the first place you would not have drawn the reaction that you did.
The first post could not have been designed better to draw a snap.

I am pretty sure that lead in a boiler is never going to be entrained with the vapour through a still and am therefore quite happy to have a brass ballvalve on my boiler.
I do choose however to not use brass fittings anywhere on my stills or the ones i make for others as i can use stainless just as easily (nearly).

I am also sure that with the tiny surface area exposed on a fitting, that any metal that is going to be dissolved will do it pretty quickly and the resulting contamination will be so minute that it would not be detectable. Even if there was 8% lead in a fitting, and even if somehow the lead on the surface was entrained into my spirit and then into my body (assuming on the last shot at the bottom of the bottle) that metal is not in an endless supply on the surface.

[MacStill]

Blokes,


I'd raised the issue with best of intentions. Fact! If that's not ok then I don't know what is.

bt1

Thank you & of course it's ok :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Sam.]

Draggin up an old thread here but thought it was worth a mention.

Go into the plumbing shop, ask oldmate im after a 20mm stainless ball valve, yeah here you and puts it on the counter. I then ask for 20mm stainless nipples, he says he has to order them from another shop (as always). At this point my normal salesperson comes up and says "you know that ball valve isn't stainless? only the handle is"

Fuck me, had an actual look and the first one old mate gave me had DR stamped on it, the actual stainless one my normal dude ordered in had 316 clearly stamped on it.

Just thought I would share, dont believe the fucking sales people :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[MacStill]

Unless they can produce a material test certificate I wouldnt trust anything "called" stainless steel after recent findings :o

[Sam.]

If an Australian company has 316 stamped on it, then I take it is the real shit :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[wynnum1]

Lead as an alloying element brass and aluminium

Extract from Basel convention
Technical guidelines on the environmentally sound
recycling/reclamation of metals and metal compounds

Brass may include as much as 3% lead to increase machineability. Lead is almost insoluble in
brass, but is dispersed in the form of fine globules. Moreover, its low melting point allows it to act as a
lubricant, reducing the friction coefficient between tools and product. Thus wear on tools is reduced and
surface finish of products is improved. In Europe, about two thirds of the tonnage produced is made up of
recycled leaded brass which has been remelted; one half of the total is machining scrap taken back by the
provider. During brass furnace operations, precautions to be taken by the operators are similar to those
for lead production, although the constraints are less stringent since the lead concentration is far lower.
Lead is also used as an alloying element with other metals, such as aluminium, generally to facilitate machining.