Plastic

[Panda]

Do not attack, I am unarmed.

Basically, What does everyone here actually know about the health issues of using plastics? From other forums I know enough to have made a decision to exclude them from the distilling process on as it is just easier to avoid them then risk potential harm.

I accept that ethanol eats plastic. thats easy to see when it comes to automotive uses. but what research is out there to show how much exposure ethanol has to have to plastic and how much has to be consumed to come near to causing as much harm to the human body as alcohol abuse can cause, if any at all.

basically. if a home distiller uses milk cartons to store his piss and drinks 2 standard drinks a week for 40 years will he contract cancer because of the plastics or can you be an absolute piss wreck and die of liver failure at age 35 and still have no signs of ill health caused by dissolved plastics.

Would love to see some of the info people have found and hear some opinions on a distilling forum.


Just want to recap that I have no intention to use plastics and don't want anyone else to consider it as a result of this post. Just want us all to have some education on the matter.

Post away :D

[MacStill]

Mrs Mac gave me a PDF of a list of materials and their suitability to be used with ethanol, I'll ask her if she can find it again and post it here :handgestures-thumbupleft:

It had a list of materials like PP, EPDM, Viton, PTFE etc etc, pretty sure I posted it on HD a couple of years ago but couldnt find it :think:

[R-sole]

What you are implying is most very likely true Panda. That the plastic will not show any particular harm in the body.

We just don't know is all, I don't think anyone does. So, like you, most will avoid using plastics on that basis.

I remember a bloke showing me the acrylic measuring tube he'd been sold by the hbs with his still etc. He used it as a tester tube when watering down his spirits. It had gon all crazed and opaque, nearly white.
He said it was on it's last legs and they only lasted six months before theyd crack right up into little bits and he'd have to get another one.

Rip off he reckoned :laughing-rolling:

[grumpthehermit]

When I bought my Pure Distilling rig I asked the HBS guy about could I run a tube from the end of the take off to get me close to the ground for bottling. ( he didn't suggest or offer the tube as an idea - just want to be clear on that, I asked him about a length of tube ).

Anyways, he sold me a 600ml length of 5-6mm clear tube for that and I used it 3 times before learning that plastic and rubber/rubberised materrials are not a good go.

Each time I used it I noticed that it went smoky white when I used it and then slowly went clear again, I also noticed that it seemed to have lost it's flexibility and seemed harder than it was originally.

I stopped using it and made a copper take off for myself. :D

Are there other "soft" materials other than Silicone and Teflon (PFTE) that are generally considered high ABV safe?

Cheers
GTH

[MR-E]

I work at a place that manufactures milk, juice e.t.c plastic bottles, if you smelt that stuff
when its fresh out the mould you wouldn't consider putting alcohol in it.
We use polyprop & three different P.E.T plastics & some other shit I cant remember.
One of the P.E.T plastics we use is what they term biodegradable, that's supposed to break down even faster.
I'm sticking to glass & S/S for my alcohol.

Cheers :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[bt1]

I'm no fan of plastics like 5Star said we just don't know

Bit sceptical cos theres so little research done on it suspect it's not std product use therefore like most of what we do, so there's no one looking at it, why would they.

Some time back did a fair bit of digging into in to Viton, kalrez etc for a gasket solution to keg join. Wrote to Dupont...they would not comment past redirecting me to their chemical compatablity sheet. Depends on how you read it but seems to suggest issues.

Expected cos I mentioned the existing use for wine bottle screw top seals they make.

bt1

[stilly_bugger]

A good start to this discussion would involve distinguishing between the different plastics. Here is the Plastic Properties Chart from Oshun Supplies. I picked up the link off the old Yahoo new distillers group.

plastics_properties_chart.gif

The chart doesn't list PTFE (Teflon®), EPDM rubber or silicones -- three of the more often used synthetics in hobby distilling.

You'll also notice that HDPE has 'good' resistance to alcohol but only 'poor to fair' resistance to solvents. Isn't ethanol a solvent? :think:

[crow]

There is talk over on Artisan that studies have shown EPDM resistant or does not react with ethanol . Wouldn't be overly comfortable to use it myself , having said that I did for a while :shhh: use a funnel from my brewing kit made of that hard Bakelite type plastic until I made a comment about someone promoting the same hypocrite and bought an ss one the same day

[stilly_bugger]

I used to use EPDM TriClamp® gaskets but I didn't like the taste that they put off. Put one in your mouth and suck on it. So I bought some PTFE gaskets from the States. They don't have the same problem, even though they are a bit rigid.

I wasn't too concerned with chemical contamination. I just wanted to avoid all possible flavour contamination.
But if chemical contamination is a concern, this PTFE resistance chart, which I found via a PTFE thread over at HD :violence-duel: , might help.

[MacStill]

Useful info here

http://www.armstrongsteam.com.au/main/chemical_resistance.pdf

[stilly_bugger]

Useful info here

http://www.armstrongsteam.com.au/main/chemical_resistance.pdf

That list is comprehensive!

I guess the next step, if we're talking about the use of synthetics in column gaskets, valves, etc. and not mere storage, is to list the various compounds that will come into contact with any synthetics during a distillation run. From Stone's Making Gin & Vodka (p. 54):

Code: Select all

COMPOUND.............BOILING POINT
Acetone..............56.5°C
Methanol.............64.7°C
Ethyl acetate........77.1°C
Ethyl alcohol (95%)..78.1°C
Propyl alcohol.......97.2°C
Water................100.0°C
Butyl alcohol........117.5°C
Amyl alcohol.........137.8°C
Furfural.............161.0°C

If we're talking about storage (and our distillation has been effective at removing some of the fores, heads and tails) then we'd be dealing with more of the mid-range compounds (ethyl alcohol, water) and fewer of the higher alcohols and the fusel oils (This won't be the case for low wines storage if it's uncut). And at much lower temperatures.

[stilly_bugger]

So here's the info from Armstrong's Corrosion Resistance Charts and Stone's Making Gin & Vodka combined.

Key to table

Synthetics
PVC = Polyvinyl chloride
PTFE = Polytetrafluoroethylene or Teflon®
PE = Polyethylene
PP = Polypropylene
FPM = Viton®
NBR = Nitrile butadiene rubber
EPDM = Ethylene propylene diene monomer rubber

Code
A = No effect
B = Minor effect
C = Moderate effect
D = Severe effect
– = No data

Code: Select all

COMPOUND              PVC      PTFE     PE       PP       FPM      NBR      EPDM    Silicone* Natural rubber
MAX. TEMP. °C         60       200               25-60    180      80       120               60
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acetone               D        A        C        B        D        D        A        B        D
Methyl alcohol        B        A        B        A        C        B        A        –        A
Ethyl acetate         D        A        C        C        D        D        B        C        D
Ethyl alcohol (100%)  A        –        B        A        A        A        B        B        A
Propyl alcohol        A        A        –        A        A        A        A        B        A
Water, fresh          A        A        D        A        A        A        A        –        A
Butyl alcohol         A        A        B        B        A        A        A        D        A
Amyl alcohol          A        A        B        A        B        B        A        D        C
Furfural              D        A        D        D        D        D        B        D        D

* The Armstrong corrosion resistance table lists 'Silicon'. I'm convinced this is a mistake and that it is meant to read 'Silicone'. Silicon is a chemical element; silicone is a synthetic compound used for gaskets, etc. If anyone thinks I wrong, don't hesitate to mention it.

:handgestures-thumbupleft:

Comments?

[R-sole]

But you are back to talking about the alcohols effect on a material, not the materials (if any is present in the alcohol) effect (if any) on the body.

[stilly_bugger]

But you are back to talking about the alcohols effect on a material, not the materials (if any is present in the alcohol) effect (if any) on the body.

That is the best statement of the two relevant questions that I have come across.

1. What is the effect of alcohol on the materials we use? And,
2. What is the effect of those materials on us when ingested?

They're both relevant questions. The table that I posted above only indicates the level of corrosion or leaching of a synthetic in the presence of the compounds commonly found in our washes. That information doesn't tell us anything about dangerous doses of those various synthetics. However, we are less likely to ingest a particular synthetic if it is more resistant to the compounds found in our washes.

For example, judging by table posted above, I will probably ingest less EPDM if I use EPDM gaskets than I will silicone if I use silicone gaskets. However, it still may be safer for me to ingest a moderate amount of silicone than a small amount of EPDM.

So, the next step? Material Safety Data Sheets and toxicity information for the various synthetics?