How Much Do The Angels Get

[SBB]

In a thread here a few days back the subject came up of how much ALC is lost to the Angels in long term ageing.
Just been reading a report on oak aging written by the American Distillers Institute. Would copy and paste or give the link but cant work out how from a PDF file.
QUOTE:
"As spirits age in barrels,the porosity in the wood results in a certain amount of evaporation. In a standard Distillery barrel (ie 53 Gallons) about %10 of the remaining spirit in the barrels evaporates each year. It is not unusual for a barrel of fine 15 year old single malt Scotch Whisky to be less than half full when ready to be bottled."

Obviously this changes a little depending on humidly and temp of the storage area. Its pretty well accepted by the hobby community world wide that spirits stored in small barrels ages much quicker than that in large barrels due to the increase in surface area to ALC ratio. For that reason I'd say the evaporation rate in a small barrel would be even greater than that of large barrels used by the big distilleries.
What do ya reckon????

Anyone wants to read the whole thing I cant point them to it.

[Cane Toad]

Another good reason to age in glass or SS kegs,the angels get their share when I'm half pissed and spilling booze everywhere :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[SBB]

BD besides the obvious "evaporation problem" from sampling, have you noticed much missing from your big barrels as time goes by ?

[Cane Toad]

Yeah I have,one was full,but I'm sure that the level has dropped by about an inch over the last 6-9 months.If this is going to keep happening I may have to rethink my long term ageing methods. I have just decanted some rum that I had stored in a keg for 18 months,I have been letting it air for a day or two every month or so,and I must admit it tasted and smelt rather nice :handgestures-thumbupleft:
This will probly be the way that I'll go in future,but has turned into a rather expensive exercise,even though the barrels were only $165 each,it cost me nearly as much to get them up here :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead: :angry-banghead:

[SBB]

Im thinking you could make a wooden " dip stick" mark the current level on that stick, check again at intervals to see just what is being lost as time goes by.
I think your still going to end up with a superior product in the end by letting the angels do their job properly.

[Cane Toad]

Yeah SBB,you are probly right,but the angels seem to be bigger loss heads than me,that's what I'm dirty about :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling:

[Brendan]

Another good reason to age in glass or SS kegs,the angels get their share when I'm half pissed and spilling booze everywhere :handgestures-thumbupleft:

The problem here is that they've shown that a large percentage of what evaporates off are parts of the harsher congeners components, which aids in smoothing out the product...a sealed glass or SS vessel does not let this happen...

[Sam.]

After 6 months in a 25L barrel my whisky has gone from 65% down to 58%.

Not sure on volume loss as I sample it too regularly

[SBB]

The problem here is that they've shown that a large percentage of what evaporates off are parts of the harsher congeners components, which aids in smoothing out the product...a sealed glass or SS vessel does not let this happen...

I agree Brendan, unless you can work out a way that will allow those types of storage vessels to replicate the way oak breathes your not going to get as good a result. it might still be good, but not the same.

[Brendan]

The problem here is that they've shown that a large percentage of what evaporates off are parts of the harsher congeners components, which aids in smoothing out the product...a sealed glass or SS vessel does not let this happen...

I agree Brendan, unless you can work out a way that will allow those types of storage vessels to replicate the way oak breathes your not going to get as good a result. it might still be good, but not the same.

I wonder if there's a timber that wouldn't impart any flavour/ colour into the spirit...then you could get what ever size barrel you wanted in that (say a 5-10L) and use it for the evaporative properties, and then just soak the spirit before or after with oak dominos to get the colour and flavour needed.

I realise there's really no point though, as you're going to the trouble of getting the barrel anyway, may as well just get an oak barrel big enough to achieve what you want and make some more spirit. The problem with any small barrel <50L is that it's not economical for the cooperage to produce them and as a result will cost almost the same as a much larger barrel.

[BackyardBrewer]

...which aids in smoothing out the product...a sealed glass or SS vessel does not let this happen...

This is why for aging in glass or SS you need to take off the lids regularly.

I uncap my Demi or flagons and cover with a paper towel for an hour or so once a week or even overnight just to let it breathe and air while I'm pottering around the shed and then they aren't "sealed" so they're breathing.

[BackyardBrewer]

After 6 months in a 25L barrel my whisky has gone from 65% down to 58%.

Not sure on volume loss as I sample it too regularly

That's a big drop in abv - that plus volume reduction would take yield way down. What was the taste diff like between the two samples at the different abv/ages?

[SBB]

I know a lot of people do it that way BB, including myself. And yes Im sure it does work to some degree.
Having said that Im not sure that an hour or two a week for a year would let the angels get there 10%.....or in other terms 500ml from a 5L demijohn.
Thats 104 hours in a year at max, 7 or 8 days to get rid of whats done slowly over a year in a barrel. Im not saying other methods are wrong, its just a subject that interests me, and I want to learn what i can about it.
I think if you could work out some sort of breather system for stainless and glass containers, that allowed slow but steady evaporation of about 10% a year, in combination with oak sticks or dominos you might get a very similar result to using a barrel.

[Brendan]

...which aids in smoothing out the product...a sealed glass or SS vessel does not let this happen...

This is why for aging in glass or SS you need to take off the lids regularly.

I uncap my Demi or flagons and cover with a paper towel for an hour or so once a week or even overnight just to let it breathe and air while I'm pottering around the shed and then they aren't "sealed" so they're breathing.

This is a good idea BYB, and something I do regularly too with anything I have stored in glass. I just always wonder the difference between the two methods.

You can always tell that this method warrants at least some use, as when you open the lid on some larger glass containers (say 8 or 12L), you get a fair whack of strong vapour in the nose if you are in there the second you take the lid off...5 seconds later and it smells beautiful in there. So there must be some compounds evaporating and sitting in the headspace waiting to escape.

What was the taste diff like between the two samples at the different abv/ages?

That is a good question, and highlights the benefit of taking a small sample of your ageing product at regular intervals and keeping it in a sealed glass container (ie. remove 50-100ml every month or two from the main ageing vessel and seal it in a small jar). This way it doesn't change, and you are able to go back through the kept samples and compare them and identify how it has developed/changed over the time. Also helps teach the nose to identify the different characteristics :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Brendan]

its just a subject that interests me, and I want to learn what i can about it.
I think if you could work out some sort of breather system for stainless and glass containers, that allowed slow but steady evaporation of about 10% a year, in combination with oak sticks or dominos you might get a very similar result to using a barrel.

:text-+1: I'm with you all the way SBB...

Considering it can create something like up to 60% of the flavour profile, it's definitely an area worth looking into developing at the hobby level to get the best product that we can.

[Sam.]

After 6 months in a 25L barrel my whisky has gone from 65% down to 58%.

Not sure on volume loss as I sample it too regularly

That's a big drop in abv - that plus volume reduction would take yield way down. What was the taste diff like between the two samples at the different abv/ages?

When it went into the barrel it was average at best, was fairly average for the first few months as well.

I didn't sample for a while but after 6 months it is pretty damn nice!

I'm going with the theory that 2 years would be optimum for this size barrel.

Brendan that would have been a good idea to keep the samples I might go this next time.

What I really want to know is what does the spirit taste like that initially goes into the barrels at the big scotch distilleries. I'm going to guess shit though!

[Brendan]

What I really want to know is what does the spirit taste like that initially goes into the barrels at the big scotch distilleries. I'm going to guess shit though!

Some distilleries actually sell their 'new-make', so it can't be all that bad...I wonder if they use a different recipe when intending to sell new-make, or just take a portion of the same stuff going into the barrels :think:

[MacStill]

It's widely known commercial distilleries are pretty greedy when it comes to cuts, and that they need to age for so long to calm the spirit down.

But, I thought that being careful with our cuts and mainly only aging hearts that we wouldnt need to age on oak and let it breathe :think:

I've never bothered much with oak barrels, mainly use demi's and a 25L SS sealed drum for my aging, and as anyone who's tried my product will say "it's so smooth it's dangerous"

I'm not buying into the whole barrel aging must be better line here :naughty:

:teasing-neener:

[SBB]

I don't think anyone is saying that barrel aging is better Mac, More just discussing the ins and outs of it and the possibility of better ways to age on glass or in stainless.

What I really want to know is what does the spirit taste like that initially goes into the barrels at the big scotch distilleries. I'm going to guess shit though!

I reckon your right about that Sam.
Brendan on the new make stuff they must be using harsher cut methods i would think.

[bt1]

true that mac

I'm not buying into the whole barrel aging must be better line here

I reckon any craft guy who's half good at cuts will have a better product at 6 - 8 months that a Distillery has at 2+ years. They are greedy by commercial pressure. Not saying that's their intent but its what I drink at bars.

proof? 18month old UJSM is near to Nirvana and it sounds good 2.
bt1