aging in barrels

[r.c.barstud]

yup, wineries do this, its called "planking" more cost effective, not as good, but its a LOT cheaper

:D

i knew you would come up with something :)) :))

[r.c.barstud]

Very impressed,

A true insite from a well experienced guru, genuine compliment here bloke... and not over stating it RC, more than over due.

Very much appreciated thanks for your extra notes and will need to re read a few times.

I'd ask the Admins to sticky this thread please...it's as close as we have to a true long term ageing write up and is well worthy of the sticky status.

RC my personal and many others express thanks for taking to the time to explain your craft. It will serve as a reference for many.

bt1

too easy mate, not a problem at all

[forefold]

Hi, r.c barstud,

Can you explain your personal process of ageing grog at home using the chips and aerator as you mentioned ? A lot of us have started using oak dominos sourced from Nadalie aust. I have just started to age 5ltrs booze at 65% in a glass demijohn with 2 dominos ( 20grams) . After reading your posts it seem that I will need to let the demijohn vent/breathe and not have it sealed up as I have been.

Thnaks for lets us pick your brains :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[scarecrow]

I age in 5 litre pickling jars. They have a good wide neck for access and it lets it breathe as well.
I did some trials on totally sealing the jar against not sealing it. The unsealed jar won hands down for smell, taste and smoothness.
And I only lost a smidge to angels over 12 months. ABV went from 65% to 62%. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

agingtrials1.jpg

scarecrow

[Rumdrinker]

yup, wineries do this, its called "planking" more cost effective, not as good, but its a LOT cheaper

:D

Never had any interest in planking but this certainly got me thinking......


Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional

[crow]

Some of the statements here are incorrect, it shouldn't worry me but for some reason it does' it bugs the hell out of me. You CAN NOT age in a glass jar or any other impervious container end of story. The thread is called "aging"in barrels and some of the methods described are flavouring with wood, not that I'm in any way putting shit on that. I myself only have 4 barrels so most of my spirits are subject to "flavouring" not aging. If I ground up oak or chestnut for example and boiled them in ethanol to extract the compounds to a concentrated essence and then wrote about using an eye dropper to flavour my spirit I would get jumped on for describing it as "aging" and rightly so. Wood flavouring is achieved fairly quickly aging is as the name suggests is not so quick. the only way you will get some of the result of aging in a demijohn I by having some of the higher alcohols becoming locked in the carbon that was converted to charcoal by char or toasting and even that process is filtering not aging and gives a different result. There is nothing wrong with wood flavouring good spirit, if your cuts were defined you should get a good result and a small amount of wood over a long period will result in some very beneficial compounds being leached into your spirit but even after a thousand yrs in that jar it will not be "aged' the flavour, profile and mouth feel you would associate with a well aged spirit will never ever be replicated by even the best cuts from the finest hearts that have be subject to flavouring only and no aging, No doubt I will get flamed for that statement and ppl will say we this peanut should try this then coz it tastes great, yeah I know . I have spirit haven't aged (most of my spirit in fact) because I don't think its necessary as it tastes very nice as is with couple of pieces of oak to flavour it but I wouldn't bet a wooden penny that it couldn't be improved by barrel aging if I could be fucked, The right barrel for the right amount of time will do a fine job aging as long as it does not get over oaked as can happen with small barrels or by putting pre-flavoured spirit in a barrel. I'm not trying to be some sort of luddite here just stating an undeniable fact that seems to be being ignored :handgestures-thumbupleft:
Edit I know i have posted on some distress "aging" processes but I haven't failed to make the point that it is in fact flavouring not aging

[r.c.barstud]

Some of the statements here are incorrect, it shouldn't worry me but for some reason it does' it bugs the hell out of me. You CAN NOT age in a glass jar or any other impervious container end of story. The thread is called "aging"in barrels and some of the methods described are flavouring with wood, not that I'm in any way putting shit on that. I myself only have 4 barrels so most of my spirits are subject to "flavouring" not aging. If I ground up oak or chestnut for example and boiled them in ethanol to extract the compounds to a concentrated essence and then wrote about using an eye dropper to flavour my spirit I would get jumped on for describing it as "aging" and rightly so. Wood flavouring is achieved fairly quickly aging is as the name suggests is not so quick. the only way you will get some of the result of aging in a demijohn I by having some of the higher alcohols becoming locked in the carbon that was converted to charcoal by char or toasting and even that process is filtering not aging and gives a different result. There is nothing wrong with wood flavouring good spirit, if your cuts were defined you should get a good result and a small amount of wood over a long period will result in some very beneficial compounds being leached into your spirit but even after a thousand yrs in that jar it will not be "aged' the flavour, profile and mouth feel you would associate with a well aged spirit will never ever be replicated by even the best cuts from the finest hearts that have be subject to flavouring only and no aging, No doubt I will get flamed for that statement and ppl will say we this peanut should try this then coz it tastes great, yeah I know . I have spirit haven't aged (most of my spirit in fact) because I don't think its necessary as it tastes very nice as is with couple of pieces of oak to flavour it but I wouldn't bet a wooden penny that it couldn't be improved by barrel aging if I could be fucked, The right barrel for the right amount of time will do a fine job aging as long as it does not get over oaked as can happen with small barrels or by putting pre-flavoured spirit in a barrel. I'm not trying to be some sort of luddite here just stating an undeniable fact that seems to be being ignored :handgestures-thumbupleft:
Edit I know i have posted on some distress "aging" processes but I haven't failed to make the point that it is in fact flavouring not aging

you are correct crow, like i said you cant beat the clock and maturation can realistically only be accomplished via a wooden vessel, however i agree, flavouring with oak and time is pretty dang good and gives some fine results.

[bt1]

Kinda,

the point missed however is a SS keg with a oak bung works, slowly but there's no reason this would not work for a long termer. A postmix keg with it's larger bung would also work. I can't SEE why the same could not be applied to a mason jar with bung.

All are viable for the smaller volumes we deal with.

bt1

[crow]

yea bt1 partly and very slowly. I have earthenware with oak tops but they are not immersed so they both age and flavour very slowly, fine if ya not an impatient prick like me :teasing-tease:
Unglazed earthenware I believe will age without flavouring and in fact amphorae were universally used to store and age wine and spirit for millennia after millennia until it was found certain timbers would impart flavours and compounds that would ameliorate the final flavour of the finished spirit rather than just simply remove unwanted higher alcohols :-B

[BackyardBrewer]

What we have is three terms that are getting muddled:

Aging
Flavouring
Storing

I'm with crow, what we're doing is trying to cheat/fake the aging process by flavouring our spirit.

We should probably be clear on what we say and mean, as there are many grey areas in between an oak barrel and a glass bottle with dominoes or staves.

I make sure all my gear in flagons with dominoes is regularly aired to improve flavour and I highly recommend having a crack at distress aging - or should that be flavouring:-)) - as per crow's tips. It smoothes and improves a spirit very quickly but it still doesn't beat months in a semi-sealed DemiJohn for my money.

It's been said before by others that if it was easy to fake the aging process the commercial industry would all be doing it. There's nothing like 30yr old spirit but 30yr old spirit and the best science and crazy theories haven't changed that in a long time and a lot of research.

Who saw that article about the micro distillery in the US that was playing heavy bass through speakers at the barrels to make the aging process faster? Yeah the expert tasters didn't think much of their booze apparently.

[Aussiedownunder01]

yea bt1 partly and very slowly. I have earthenware with oak tops but they are not immersed so they both age and flavour very slowly, fine if ya not an impatient prick like me :teasing-tease:
Unglazed earthenware I believe will age without flavouring and in fact amphorae were universally used to store and age wine and spirit for millennia after millennia until it was found certain timbers would impart flavours and compounds that would ameliorate the final flavour of the finished rather than just simply remove unwanted higher alcohols :-B

Jees crow where did you get all those words did you eat a dictionary for lunch :))
Whats he talking about

[crow]

Jees crow where did you get all those words did you eat a dictionary for lunch :))
Whats he talking about

Cold pizza and hot beer actually an I am fairly confident you know what I'm talking about ;-)

[r.c.barstud]

from my other post....the basic physics behind maturation is rather simple, time, angel share (ullage) & tannins. The way i combine all 3 major components is....in a jar with a large opening, with oak chips and grog. i circulate the alcohol around the jar via a pump with an fish tank aerator, both of these will have the exact same physical dynamics as a barrel during maturation, the bubbles and constant circulation increase the surface areas exposed to both the alcohol and the oak chips, it will also simulate the same basic physcial properties of evapotranspiration that takes place in a barrel by increasing the surfaces areas to mass over volume and time, while minimising the potential porosity of the oak to get maximum saturation and extraction :-B :-B . it does work, is it cheating? bloody oath its, is it good? yup. is it doing the same as "real maturation"? hmm mmm just in overdrive, but it dont beat the clock, therefore its not the same, its simply a replication, there is 1 major disadvantage, vacuum, without whipping out the wifes dyson and doing some nutty professor shenanigans, i dont know how to replicate a small capicity vacuum. but, thats how i round out my grog while combining the major elements together at a faster rate :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[forefold]

Thanks for that r.c.barstud, I will give your technique a crack! Champion :smile:

Sent from my GT-I9210T using Tapatalk 2

[SBB]

Crikey..aint this thread grown since i last looked..........good thread :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Pugdog1]

everyone should post pics and a small explantion on there setups :dance:

[markus]

Great thread some interesting info here.
Thanks RC

Cheers Markus

[bt1]

here's a quality extract that differentiates between evaporation and oxidation and the ability to achieve that within a sealed container. Interesting take.

The truth is, we don't need any drunken angels! More to the point, the process of evaporation is distinct from the process of oxidation. Although they are often confused and used interchangeably. The whiskey flavour can be achieved with out any evaporation at all, because the flavour component comes from oxidation process alone. The alcohol solubilizes the lignins of the oak which then oxidize into vanillins. Using oak chips with an air tight container (stainless steel or glass) with a 1/3 to 1/4 air space at the top, so 100% evaporation is recaptured with 100% oxidation.

The whole section is worth a read.

http://homedistiller.org/aging/aging/casks

bt1

[Konzo]

So as a newbie, i have thoroughly enjoyed this thread and most definitely learnt a few tricks. My question is however, where in OZ can you purchase "used once" bourbon barrels to flavor whisky? I only want to start small and eventually learn my way to bigger places :-)

[bt1]

catcher,

there lies the problem and if we could get em they would most likely be hogsheads - 300lt or the 225lt barque??? one...near useless for hobby level.... don't despair however cost you've access to plenty of used timber strips from bourbon makers....might be a workable solution for you.

bt1