Found a source of Oak - Raw, Toast or Char?

[Satly_Dog]

I just found that a friend (Furniture Maker)
Has in collection of old stored timber, some French Oak (100 years old) and some American Oak.

He has a heap of the American Oak milled to 20mm x 20mm and 1800mm in length
Probably 100 sticks of it.
It was for a job that was 18 years ago, it never got used and has just sat in his collection ever since.

The French Oak is in slabs 350mm wide by 25mm thick

I took one of the American Oak sticks home with me tonight.
I have read that it should be cut a ratio of 10% end grain and 90% side grain.
The long sticks are already more or less in that ratio, they just need to be trimmed to fit into bottles etc.

So my first attempt will be to Age TPW in Oak to make a Bourbon
(or as close as i can with TPW and T500 still anyway)

So.... Char? Toast? or Raw?

Happy to be pointed to another thread if this has been well covered before.

[1 2many]

You must make sure that the oak doesn't have any staining or varnishing on the wood or you will have problems. ;-)

[Satly_Dog]

No, it is totally a raw product from what i can tell.
I'll post a pic soon.

[Sam.]

Char the American oak for bourbon :handgestures-thumbupleft:

But don't expect a real bourbon flavour from starting with a nuetrel spirit ;-)

[Jonny03]

Furniture makers tend to use red oak, brewers/winemakers/distillers tend to use white oak. They're very different. I'd never use red oak to age beer and can't see any reason why I'd use it for spirits either

[Satly_Dog]

I have taken this from another website

Charcoal that can be used to smooth the flavor of bourbons and rums may be made at home like this: use either hickory, oak, or sugar maple wood (buying it from a lumber supplier is easy enough) as these are proven to be nontoxic.

Split the wood into finger-width sticks about 4 to 6 inches long, then pack them into an old coffee can that has no more of that coffee smell or any rust. Pack them in standing upright so there isn't much space between them. Once the can has a solid layer of these sticks crammed in together like sardines standing upright, cover the top of the can with a layer of heavy tinfoil that has a pencil sized hole in the middle of it. Place this arrangement on your propane burner (this is not to be done inside!!), and set the heat on high. After a bit of heating up, some steam, then other various flammable organic gases will evolve off (if the foil swells up, make the hole a bit larger- try not to burn yourself). Once there is no more gas/steam coming out, turn off the heat and let the can sit outside to cool on it's own with a cover to exclude any air from getting in. Once cool, rinse any ash off in some cold water and use however you wish. Do not poke any holes in the coffee can - that will allow air into the mix and turn all of the wood into ashes, instead of turning it into charcoal.

I was first going to Char with a Gas/Butane torch
But after reading the above, i am not so sure.

Any suggestions from people who have done this?
Ultimately i'd like to try and achieve what this person has with my first attempts.

(I hope external links are ok?)It dependson who the link is too

[Satly_Dog]

American Oak (Sticks)



French Oak (slabs)



Workshop lighting is a bit yellow in the above pic.

[bluc]

I char with propane cant see how butane would be any different :handgestures-thumbupleft: nice score!! The above guide you posted is for charcoal. Charcoal charred oak and toasted oak are 3 seperate things..

[Satly_Dog]

I char with propane cant see how butane would be any different :handgestures-thumbupleft: nice score!! The above guide you posted is for charcoal. Charcoal charred oak and toasted oak are 3 seperate things..

Stop hurting my brain :think:

[Meatheadinc]

I char with propane cant see how butane would be any different nice score!! The above guide you posted is for charcoal. Charcoal charred oak and toasted oak are 3 seperate things..

+1
The charcoal linked above is generally used as a filter. Jack Daniels does this with sugar maple before oaking in barrels.

I think would you want to do is emulate a barrel. Barrels are usually toasted or chared pending desire effect and product. etc

The char on a barrel is not charcoal it only penetrates part way into the stave.
I usually toast my oak in the over then char with my mapp torch, give it a quick rub/scape with a SS scrubby then wash and rinse with water.

[WTDist]

I used to use propane, which works a treat. Now i use map which is 10x faster just because of the torch and gas i use. basically just char or burn that shit and it will work. Toasting in the oven caremalises sugars and charring wit the torch making it like charcoal on outside increase surface area making it work a lil bit faster and filtering also, only slightly though.

either way, i toast in oven for a while, 30 mins at least then i hit wit ha torch and make the outside look like a charcoal finish to increase surface area :handgestures-thumbupleft:

BTW there is such thing as too much charring/burning. ive had stuff taste like smoke before, although it wasnt too bad but i dont recommend it :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Kenster]

Salty... magnificent score...
all our contributors are right on the money, in their own way.
This hobby we have includes some variables...namely personal taste.You will not get a true Bourbon but i have barrel oaked some neutral and my mate, the officionado, is blown away, even though it is not 'real'.
Not sure if i have American or European oak... doesent seem to matter that much to me.
I have used dry but un treated cherry wood (others use apple and other fruit wood) to a high degree of success.
I just chucked some random sized bits in a bottle, no formula, worked ok.
Guess what i am saying is, give it a go, char, toast,burn, cook .. whatever... you will develop a system that suits you.
Each cook you produce will vary a bit so dont loose too much sleep on the exact method... go by the guidelines and you cant go wrong.
Cheers...Ken

[bluc]

To make activated charcoal use the guide you post then pour your spirit through it slowly think polishing neutral spirit to remove tails and heads..
For toasted oak, vanilla flavours. Put your oak in the oven on medium heat till golden brown. Should add nice vanilla flavour to spirit.
For char get your butane torch and blacken the oak. Should add vanilla and caramel flavours as well as smoked flavour..

Think of it like making sugar lollies/toffee heavier you toast darker richer the flavour, because that's exactly what your doing, caramelising the sugar in the oak :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Satly_Dog]

Thanks guys, i really appreciate the heads up.
Just airing the cuts on 75 litres of Distilled wash, so i should have plenty to play with.

I'll give the oven a try today.

Do you wrap it in foil or just sit it in there fully exposed?

[Satly_Dog]

About to Oak today.

But i am reading conflicting info on the ABV % i should Oak at?
A lot here say 65%

Then i read things like this:

Oaking - Several different flavors can come from a single type of oak if alcohol strength is adjusted during maturation. 55%-53% will give vanillins, 40%-50% will give a mix of vanillins and sugars, 40%-49% will give sugars.

What I like to do is start at 55%-53% for first phase (1 to 12 months) then dilute to 40% (3- 12 months). In this manner I am adding sugar from the cells of the wood while I marry the dilution water to the whiskey. This results in rich vanilla oak charater with silky legs that cling to the side of the glass. The procedure works well with all types (chips or BBL) and varieties of Oak.

Does anyone here vary the ABV of the spirit being soak over the Oaking duration?
Why is 65% often suggested here when it seems out of the range for some people?

The person i bought my Oak Dominos from, he also suggested 65%
And was explaining to me, that is where it got hard, as he had to use the Carbon Filter at 40-45%, yet Oak at 65%.
Meaning he couldn't do both, unless he Carbon Filtered his already Oaked spirit (which he didn't)

Any ideas?

Thanks

[WTDist]

i do 68% and let it evaporate to the low 60%'s

[Satly_Dog]

i do 68% and let it evaporate to the low 60%'s

Thanks WTDist, is that with Dominos or Chunks or Shavings?

[bluc]

I oak everything at 65 on dominoes in demijohns. Mostly medium toast but have been playing with heavy charred dominoes adds a smokey flavour I quite like..

[WTDist]

dominoes. I dont use shavings anymore. Expensive and i like to to age a while. I toast and char all my own

[Satly_Dog]

Update

Starting with my best TPW Hearts, and some 2nd Cut TPW and my last Turbo Hearts i made the following:

1 x 1 Litre TPW Hearts @ 65% with Oak Shavings (Far Left)
1 x 1 Litre TPW Hearts @ 65% with 2 Domino sticks (Left)
2 x 1.5 Litres TPW 2nd Cut @ 65% with my own Oak sticks (toasted for 2 hours, then Charred) (middle)
1 x 1.5 Litres Turbo Hearts @ 40% with my Oak Sticks (Just Toasted for 2 hours only) (right)

They were all left to soak for 8 days
Which was probably too long, especially for the Shavings!

On my return (i had to go away), i sampled them all.
Removing the Oak and watering down to 40%.




Results

Upon watering down to 40%

The TPW in Oak Shavings was nice, had that Bourbon Smell, had the right colour, was close, but wasn't spot on (not that i was expecting spot on)
But, it was very drinkable, and mixed with Coke, was nice, mellow, rounded.

Next, the Dominos, they seemed to take longer to colour, but had taken on that wooded, bourbon flavour.

To my surprise, it was my own Toasted and Charred Oak that smelt the tasted good also, probably smelt the best of all of them.

Last, the Turbo Heart @ 40% in just Toasted Oak, a very different flavour, more like a Brandy in smell, not like a Bourbon at all.

My Mistake

I read on here somewhere, someone had mentioned, the best of all the Essences for a Bourbon, was the Still Spirits Premium Tennessee Bourbon spirit essence (it is a sachet)

I was already very happy with the TPW aged in Oak Shavings, and had decanted it into a JD Bottle
It was acceptable, smooth, but not quite the correct taste for JD.
So in my wisdom, i mixed half of one of these sachets in each 1 litre JD bottle filled with the TPW aged in Shavings for 8 days.
Big mistake!!!
It is so over wooded now, its just embarrassing
I even tried to dilute the flavour mistake with more 40% TPW neutral.... It did not help and just wasted more good product trying to rectify bad.

I may try the last Sachet in a Straight neutral (as it says to do)
But it was a failure in already Oaked Neutral (or at least, to the stage i had Oaked it)

Next time, i will just use my own Toasted and Charred Oak and monitor it closer
It might be just me, but it this concept seems to work better with a blended cuts, then just the pure best Hearts.

Thoughts anyone?

Oh and Essences, i think i am totally over them.
What a waste of money and product :(