Secondary oak ageing bourbon and whiskey

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Secondary oak ageing bourbon and whiskey

Postby Bumper » Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:24 pm

Lots of questions at the moment.

I have been reading 'The Maturation of Distilled Spirits' by Hubert Germaine-Robin. He talks about initial ageing on american oak char 4, and then transferring to european oak for final conditioning. What he doesn't say is if the french oak should also be charred or raw. The benefits from his notes seem to be more sherry, dried fruit, peel, raisin flavours (ie richer complexity). Any thoughts on toasting secondary wood?

Thanks

B
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Re: Secondary oak ageing bourbon and whiskey

Postby bluc » Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:49 pm

Toasting it caramelises the sugars in it, im thinking toast it for sure..Not sure what raw oak would add..
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Re: Secondary oak ageing bourbon and whiskey

Postby Bumper » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:07 pm

bluc wrote:Toasting it caramelises the sugars in it, im thinking toast it for sure..Not sure what raw oak would add..


Makes sense, I am wondering what level if it sits on char 4 for 12 months first. Will work through the other oaking threads and see if I can find a char level flavour chart. Thanks.
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Re: Secondary oak ageing bourbon and whiskey

Postby bluc » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:30 pm

Bumper wrote:
bluc wrote:Toasting it caramelises the sugars in it, im thinking toast it for sure..Not sure what raw oak would add..


Makes sense, I am wondering what level if it sits on char 4 for 12 months first. Will work through the other oaking threads and see if I can find a char level flavour chart. Thanks.

Personally have only tried 15gl, oldest i have is 11 months, a rum, lots fruity esters in it would nearly think it had some port mixed with it. I liked the use of really heavily charred charred oak also, hit it with a blow torch till it looks like crocodile skin then while its still smoldering put it in an airtight container(coffee tin did the job) and it will add a really nice smokey flavour to the spirit, but I use it sparingly 5g max for 2l spirit at 65%. I use more like 2-3g now

I find american oak adds honey flavours and french oak adds butterscotch and caramel/toffee flavours, about my fav rum so far was 20g french oak 5g american and 5g heavy charred american oak.
Was delicious, rum with honeycomb butterscotch after taste.. :handgestures-thumbupleft:
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Re: Secondary oak ageing bourbon and whiskey

Postby Bumper » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:44 pm

bluc wrote:
Bumper wrote:
bluc wrote:Toasting it caramelises the sugars in it, im thinking toast it for sure..Not sure what raw oak would add..


Makes sense, I am wondering what level if it sits on char 4 for 12 months first. Will work through the other oaking threads and see if I can find a char level flavour chart. Thanks.

Personally have only tried 15gl, oldest i have is 11 months, a rum, lots fruity esters in it would nearly think it had some port mixed with it. I liked the use of really heavily charred charred oak also, hit it with a blow torch till it looks like crocodile skin then while its still smoldering put it in an airtight container(coffee tin did the job) and it will add a really nice smokey flavour to the spirit, but I use it sparingly 5g max for 2l spirit at 65%. I use more like 2-3g now

I find american oak adds honey flavours and french oak adds butterscotch and caramel/toffee flavours, about my fav rum so far was 20g french oak 5g american and 5g heavy charred american oak.
Was delicious, rum with honeycomb butterscotch after taste.. :handgestures-thumbupleft:


Nice! The fruity port rich caramel flavours, leather, tobacco slightly smokey style spirits are my favorite. Love an Eagle Rare neat, or a James E Pepper 1776 bourbon or rye.

Interesting re the butterscotch, just checked back on the book and he also mentioned caramel from the french oak so that fits, I wonder if the heavy initial char was carrying through the fruits that he attributed to the oak, with just more time in the barrel maturing continuing to bring them out. He specialises in cognacs, so that would influence it too. I will definitely try your oaking profile it would work nicely for a bourbon too methinks. Last dark rum I had was bundy many years ago, didn't do much for me, too many whiskeys and bourbons to try, and beers to make ;-) but must give it another go. Any commercial rums you would actually recommend? I use white rum in my pineapple chilli sauces but that's probably for another thread. :smile:
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Re: Secondary oak ageing bourbon and whiskey

Postby bluc » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:49 pm

Tobaccoo and cigar flavors thoughts have crossed my mind when drinking past batchs also but have not been able to nail down how to reproduce it. :angry-banghead:

I only ever drank bundy have had appleton reserve kraken and mt gay recomended but have not tried them yet, they are also on my to do list..
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Re: Secondary oak ageing bourbon and whiskey

Postby bluc » Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:01 pm

Something else about oaking i find flavours come and go fast and pretty wildly, it may be real rich honeycomb or caramel one day and a week later these flavours have faded and its now vanilla or fruity flavours at the fore front. The flavour swings wildly and its hard to stop it at a given point, which is why most large distillery either vat or blend to get a consistently flavoured product.
The profile i posted i tried at day 21 it was like eating a piece of honeycomb lolly :handgestures-thumbupleft: time of year and fermentation conditions also plays a big part in flavour. So many variables its very hard to reproduce something exactly..
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Re: Secondary oak ageing bourbon and whiskey

Postby Bumper » Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:09 pm

bluc wrote:Something else about oaking i find flavours come and go fast and pretty wildly, it may be real rich honeycomb or caramel one day and a week later these flavours have faded and its now vanilla or fruity flavours at the fore front. The flavour swings wildly and its hard to stop it at a given point, which is why most large distillery either vat or blend to get a consistently flavoured product.
The profile i posted i tried at day 21 it was like eating a piece of honeycomb lolly :handgestures-thumbupleft: time of year and fermentation conditions also plays a big part in flavour. So many variables its very hard to reproduce something exactly..


Wouldn't it be nice to have few years of barrels to blend from...

The appleton reserve looks good from the tasting notes from Nicks. Will keep an eye out for it.
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Re: Secondary oak ageing bourbon and whiskey

Postby coffe addict » Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:19 pm

It's my understanding that tobacco and leather flavours come from sulphide which is removed from the copper... Could try an all stainless pot and if it's too heavy on the tobacco flavours use it for blending.
Flavours do move around heaps and have taken to thinking of it like a roller-coaster with ups and downs but each up better than the one before.
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Re: Secondary oak ageing bourbon and whiskey

Postby bluc » Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:09 pm

Make it and call whatever main flavour a feature :laughing-rolling: boy i have a long way to go, lot to learn.. :-B would definately call the tobacco flavour a positve in a rum, but i am an ex smoker..
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Re: Secondary oak ageing bourbon and whiskey

Postby Bumper » Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:30 pm

Researching flavours, apparently the tobacco flavours can come from careful additions of feints in the cuts. Whiskey science blog has a great collection of flavour wheels.
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