Detuning CM Still Half way

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Detuning CM Still Half way

Postby virge » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:47 pm

The T500 does a good job with neutral spirit. I packed mine starting from bottom to top with: copper mesh, 5mm Pall rings and copper saddles. The column took 1kg 5mm stainless steel Pall rings and now I get a steady 96% alcohol out and the temperature of the distillate is 19 degrees celsius, no error of alcohol percentage there, in other words I get above 96% alcohol.
My column is a DIY and the column is 40mm longer than the factory made. I run it at full power (gas burner) and the water temperature stays at 45 degrees celsius for a drip drip dribble output.
I read a lot about detuning for distilling whisky or brandy, doing stripping runs and then a spirit run.
The bubbler can do it in one go and if you run it to collect at around 80% alcohol then you get flavours also.
The T500 is not designed to work as a pot still and when detuning without danger of melting plastics in my case (no plastic or brass in my still), it does not work that good and I mean that it is very slow, slower than in reflux mode.
Has anyboby tried to run the T500 partially detuned? Just remove the packing and feed the reflux coil to get above 70% alcohol in one go? This way there will be no need of stripping and spirit runs. I suppose it can do flavoured in one run this way.
The bubbler is also a reflux column and does it in one go?
What do you think?
Last edited by Sam. on Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Changed title for clarification
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Re: Detuning T500 Half way

Postby RC Al » Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:01 am

You don't have a t500, you have a CM still with a liebig condenser :teasing-tease:

Yours is fine to run with as little packing as you desire, the solid copper construction ensures no issues

If you would like to hot rod your set up a bit to be better at what you want to do, put the reflux condenser on a different water feedline and add a needle valve to the water outlet on the column (you have one already??), this will give you independent control of it while your product condenser can knock down a higher rate of production with more flow available.

Put a needle valve at the top of the product condenser to tune your flow rate, it can be too fast to work propery or you may need to reduce it right down to stop huffing.

With packing removed, you could run it as a pot still by turning off the flow to the rc, some flow will give a bit of reflux and give you an abv spike without loosing much flavor

In addition, to give you a bit more potstill stripping speed and reduce the temp of your product, consider adding another cooling jacket on the extra legth of output tube (possibly at the bigger diameter)

And please consider replacing that brass union at the top with a stainless one
A triclamp for the top cap would pimp it nicely
Stole this from your thread
Image
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Re: Detuning T500 Half way

Postby Tesla101 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:12 am

Some good info there RC. I was thinking of running separate cooling lines to my T500 as well.

Although one issue I haven't solved yet is that on the T500 and also like virge's still, the output port of the reflux condenser is vertical. This means once the outlet hose gets a bit warm there's a good chance of it kinking and blocking the output flow. Having a barb on the outlet also makes it difficult to attach anything but a hose to it.

Also, I'm wondering why you're recommending putting needle valves on the output flows and not the input? Can you please explain what the benefits are of doing it that way?
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Re: Detuning T500 Half way

Postby RC Al » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:49 am

Just to reiterate, that advice was for virge's unit, NOT A REGULAR T500, virge's is a bit easier to mod and there's no plastic bit to contend with. I dont recommend hacking too far into a t500, just sell and upgrade...

With the hose kinking issues at either end, a 90 degree bend or two would solve most of the issues, irrigation plastic ones are working well for me for this sort of thing but ensure the id of any connectors are bigger than the id of the outlet on the unit. You can jump the plastic tubing up a size on the barbs by leaving a sleeve of the original plastic tube on there, hose clamps are wonderful things. Keep the runs between fittings as short and straight as possible, a support might be optional but probably not needed.

Double tubing and springs can also work

With the valve on the outlet, there is a few camps on that, but I believe that having the full pressure of the pump on the cooling jacket is beneficial for reduction of air pockets and gives the incoming water a long continuous body of water that acts as a heat pipe of sorts. Having it under pressure in theory raises the boiling pont of the coolant, but i am unsure if this increases the actual heat handling properties of the water or not. All that really is my thinking only.

On both my stills I've tried the valves both ends, the valve on the output enabled a higher stripping speed before huffing and more stable running on both, the control was better overall
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Re: Detuning T500 Half way

Postby Tesla101 » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:48 pm

Thanks RC :handgestures-thumbupleft:

RC Al wrote:Just to reiterate, that advice was for virge's unit, NOT A REGULAR T500, virge's is a bit easier to mod and there's no plastic bit to contend with. I dont recommend hacking too far into a t500, just sell and upgrade...


Oh, I will be as soon as financially possible :) Cooling hose mods wouldn't be hacking into the T500 so much, and all the hose ports are copper (or copper coated brass or something)

RC Al wrote:With the hose kinking issues at either end, a 90 degree bend or two would solve most of the issues, irrigation plastic ones are working well for me for this sort of thing but ensure the id of any connectors are bigger than the id of the outlet on the unit. You can jump the plastic tubing up a size on the barbs by leaving a sleeve of the original plastic tube on there, hose clamps are wonderful things. Keep the runs between fittings as short and straight as possible, a support might be optional but probably not needed.

Double tubing and springs can also work

With the valve on the outlet, there is a few camps on that, but I believe that having the full pressure of the pump on the cooling jacket is beneficial for reduction of air pockets and gives the incoming water a long continuous body of water that acts as a heat pipe of sorts. Having it under pressure in theory raises the boiling pont of the coolant, but i am unsure if this increases the actual heat handling properties of the water or not. All that really is my thinking only.

On both my stills I've tried the valves both ends, the valve on the output enabled a higher stripping speed before huffing and more stable running on both, the control was better overall


Yep, makes total sense. I'll try it out some of those mods. At least when I do get to upgrade someone will be buying a better T500 than the stock model.
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Re: Detuning T500 Half way

Postby virge » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:44 pm

Hi RC Al, thanks for the valuable advice. Guys like you makes this forum so special.
I got rid of the brass coupling and I siver soldered the end cap to the column. I also renounced at the temperature probe on top and replaced the PC output extension with a 10mm one and added a short aeration pipe on the coupler (less huffing).
I have a till Spirits needle valve fitted on the tap. I have a needle valve meant for my next build (Boka) which I have now available because I think a Boka would not be better. I mean that already the T500 knock off gives me more than 96% alcohol and I doubt the boka would run faster.
My setting with the separate gas burner is quite fast, the still starts at 35 degrees of the RC output water temperature and the still is balanced with drip drip dribble at 42 degrees. This means that the water flow is quite high and this is why I get alcohol at 19 degrres celsius from the PC.
I will not be able to fit the needle valve on the output of the RC because I have the temperature probe on the compression T there.
I will definitely do a separate supply for the RC with the needle valve on the input and I will leave the PC with rhe water volume control from the tap.
I can add an extra Liebig on the PC extension but do I need it when the distillate gets out at 19 degrees Celsius? Or maybe with a longer condensing path it will reduce the huffing. I will do it, not a big issue, materials already available. I was thinking that if I will build a 2" shotgun condenser and repace the existing one then I might be able to get a continuous stream of distillate in pot still configuration.
Now what is left is to experiment with flavoured washes and find the ballance between reflux (ABV) and flavour.
Thanks again RC Al for your help.
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Re: Detuning T500 Half way

Postby virge » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:18 pm

This is how my column looks like. I need to clean it but was too busy with some neutral spirit
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Re: Detuning T500 Half way

Postby virge » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:22 pm

And now a pic of my column packing. Just got them out because I have some fruit washes to distill but not before I get some fittings tomorrow for a separate RC water supply. The copper mesh is used as a stopper, I id not have other solution for stopping the Pall rings from falling into the boiler. This is to prove why I get 96% alcohol in reflux mode.
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Re: Detuning T500 Half way

Postby Sam. » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:49 pm

[quote="virge] This is to prove why I get 96% alcohol in reflux mode.[/quote]

You might be getting close but you won’t be getting above 95.6% unless you are in a seriously elevated area. Unless you have a very expensive alcometer which is calibrated you will not be getting super accurate readings. And for hobby users this doesn’t really matter. Just wanted to point out it would be impossible to pull 96% with that rig.
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Re: Detuning T500 Half way

Postby virge » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:29 am

Hi Sam,
I live in Johannesburg area, altitude 1753m. I bought the alcohometer from my HBS. The temperature of the spirit was 19 degree Celsius, read with an analogue thermometer with long probe used for cheese making which is quite accurate.
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Re: Detuning T500 Half way

Postby virge » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:47 am

But as you said, it doesn't matter. I don'd do a lot of neutral spirit anyway. It is just a hobby.
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Re: Detuning T500 Half way

Postby virge » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:48 am

But as you said, it doesn't matter. I don'd do a lot of neutral spirit anyway. It is just a hobby.
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Re: Detuning T500 Half way

Postby Tesla101 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:30 am

Hi virge,

It might be the camera angle but that looks like 94% to me. Reading from the bottom of the meniscus...
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Re: Detuning T500 Half way

Postby db1979 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:31 am

Tesla101 wrote:Hi virge,

It might be the camera angle but that looks like 94% to me. Reading from the bottom of the meniscus...

:text-+1:
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Re: Detuning T500 Half way

Postby virge » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:15 am

Haha, as you can see 95 is in the liquid and 96 which you don't see is on the liquid surface
But it doesn't matter and I don't want to argue here. You already told me the alcoholmeter might not be accurate.
I am interested in making good flavoured spirit in one go with this column and I will be trying some reflux on it.
I will aim at 80% for the heads and 70% for the hearts while distilling my collection of fruit mashes (plums, peaches, pomegranate and grapes).
I hope to do the first try on Thursday if I find the parts for the separate water lines for the RC and PC tomorrow.
I will keep you posted.
If not happy with the result, I will build a bubbler.
Too much time wasted with the stripping and spirit run. My fruit washes are in small quantity in 25L fermenters and I do not want to mix them, so in pot still configuration I have to distill each 25L twice.
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Re: Detuning T500 Half way

Postby Sam. » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:51 am

All good mate, with your elevation I would expect it to be a bit higher off the still. Your fruit washes sound interesting, it's something I have never had the chance to play with.
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Re: Detuning T500 Half way

Postby virge » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:23 pm

The fruit brandy is what I grew up with, haha. It is more of a tradition in Eastern, Central Europe and is named slivovitz and closed versions of this word. In the traditional way you have mashes not washes and you boil it as is. Some of the local Alembics have a kind of a blender shaft moving the mash while boiling the mix. I have a 10mm layered botom boiler so no need for it. They double distill (stripping and spirit run) and they only remove 0.5 to 2% of the distillate as foreshots and collect everything till they they get 20% alcohol out. No cuts, this is the traditional way. Then aged for at least 3 years in mulberry barrels.
I will do mine in the traditional way, only some wine I will try with the reflux.
I want to do whisky washes in one go with the reflux on this column.
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Re: Detuning CM Still Half way

Postby Sam. » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:31 pm

Sounds good :handgestures-thumbupleft:

I also changed the title of the thread just so T500 users with plastic parts dont get the wrong idea ;-)
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Re: Detuning CM Still Half way

Postby virge » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:55 pm

Sorry Sam, I did not want to create any confusion here. You are right. All I know is I kind of copied a T500.
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Re: Detuning CM Still Half way

Postby virge » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:45 am

My column aher hot roding as per RC Al advice.
Now ready for some experimenting with flavoured spirits distillation in one run.
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