Dissecting my run to find my #%?! UP!

Reflux still design and discussion

Dissecting my run to find my #%?! UP!

Postby LikkerSheWillLoveIt » Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:11 am

Hey folks.

I’m trying to find the source of what I did wrong yesterday. I ended up with about 6L of of distillate around 92% out of a 150L TPW run that had been stripped. I removed 10L from the boiler, so I have those low wines for the next run.

I set up on Friday arvo/evening, I set the alarm for 4:00am and woke up at 2:30am so went down and fired up the still about 3:00am.

I have narrowed it down to 3 things, I had the boiler over powered, I fixed that early, I was running full noise on a single 2200W element in a 50L keg. 1250mm packed column 2 inch Boka.

Is this too much packing? I know I had it over packed, I didn’t “fluff up” the scrubbers enough, but I want to make sure I’m not under packed. I also had the copper saddles in the bottom 150mm section I BELIEVE THIS WAS MY PROBLEM.

These are the scrubbers I use, from the big green shed.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
LikkerSheWillLoveIt
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:16 am
Location: Tweed Heads. Northern NSW
equipment: Home made 50L keg boiler. PID controlled. Stainless Column dual valved reflux still.

Re: Dissecting my run to find my #%?! UP!

Postby BigRig » Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:22 am

the 150L before stripping, so you ended up with 35-40L of 40%abv low wines for spirit run ?

Is the 6L of 92%abv your hearts cut ? That sounds about right. Once diluted to drinking strength you will have almost 14Ls of liquor.

If it was running full power and the condensor was unable to knock vapour down properly you might've lost some out the top. The steel wool looks ok and not over packed, u should be able to blow through the pipe without resistance.
BigRig
 
Posts: 752
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:29 pm
Location: Brisbane, QLD
equipment: FSD 4" Mac SSG, 50L Milk Can, 2 x 2400w elements, 35L Digiboil Boiler, Airstill.

Re: Dissecting my run to find my #%?! UP!

Postby RuddyCrazy » Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:41 am

To give you something to compare I did 2 60 litre ferments and stripped both of them then did a spirit run over 4 plates with a 500mm packed section. I got 13 litres of 90% and just over a litre of feints. So with using a boka I have no idea as I've never used one but other members that have used them could chime in and mention their results.

Cheers Bryan
RuddyCrazy
Mentor
 
Posts: 2439
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:36 pm
Location: Not far from Kanmantoo SA
equipment: 4" copper bubbler with a setup for Neutral and a thumper for Whisky and my old 5 litre pot for doing maceration runs and MiniMe the baby pot still

Re: Dissecting my run to find my #%?! UP!

Postby LikkerSheWillLoveIt » Sun Mar 14, 2021 11:56 am

Big rig, condenser was still knocking everything down. No vapour went out the top.

Bryan I did 6x 25L TPW ferments, stripped in 3 runs last week and 35% low wines in the boiler. I may have overfilled the 50 litre keg, not sure on head space required for a low wines run, but I had thought I was good, I took some out just in case.

I did shut down and take some packing out, I know I was over packed.

Find out again in 3 weeks I guess.

I’ll try with half the copper and a small scrubber in that bottom section next run.


I figure if you don’t learn something on every run, you’re not doing it right.
LikkerSheWillLoveIt
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:16 am
Location: Tweed Heads. Northern NSW
equipment: Home made 50L keg boiler. PID controlled. Stainless Column dual valved reflux still.

Re: Dissecting my run to find my #%?! UP!

Postby RC Al » Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:49 pm

Move the copper to the top, with 3 weeks spare, consider getting some mesh? - I think your rings are too long, you would have to use a cutting disc (vs the tube cutter) to get them to an apropriate size, you want them no longer than square to increase the density.

Pull your scrubbers completely apart into much smaller, fluffier chunks

You should have no problems getting 95 with that much legnth propperly packed, you might have to slow it down a very small amount though
RC Al
Mentor
 
Posts: 1568
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:58 pm
Location: Sunshine Coast Area
equipment: 3 plate 4" glasser
2" Potty

Re: Dissecting my run to find my #%?! UP!

Postby howard » Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:09 pm

i use the same Mr Clean scrubbies plus copper mesh in a 2" 1100mm column.
400mm of FSD mesh ( 4 x 100mm rolls) on top
700mm of scrubbies on bottom.
i manage to stuff 11 scrubbies in the 700mm so i don't see the problem there.
i don't use any supporting gasket (middle picture?)
where exactly does that go? presumably keeping the copper in?
never had a scrubbie fall out, i almost ram them in and feel no need to 'fluff' them out at all.
i think the copper needs to go on top as you stated.
i don't have a boka, but my 2" only needs about 1700-1800w to work in my 1100mm of packing.


clark rubber sell pipe insulation that fits very well on 2" columns
https://www.clarkrubber.com.au/collecti ... insulation
i think it's rated to 120C from memory.
howard
 
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:53 am
Location: perth
equipment: 35l brewzilla
2" modular CM
gin caddy
changeover element switch and voltage controller on brewzillas 1900w element.
5L glass boiler/glass leibig

Re: Dissecting my run to find my #%?! UP!

Postby LikkerSheWillLoveIt » Sun Mar 14, 2021 7:49 pm

Thanks Howard. That and what RC said is making me think it’s the copper saddles. I’ll order mesh from FSD

I know I was over powered and forcing more vapor up than condensed liquid was coming down.
LikkerSheWillLoveIt
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:16 am
Location: Tweed Heads. Northern NSW
equipment: Home made 50L keg boiler. PID controlled. Stainless Column dual valved reflux still.

Re: Dissecting my run to find my #%?! UP!

Postby howard » Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:09 am

LikkerSheWillLoveIt wrote:Thanks Howard. That and what RC said is making me think it’s the copper saddles. I’ll order mesh from FSD

I know I was over powered and forcing more vapor up than condensed liquid was coming down.

FYI i bought 500gm of FSD mesh and this turned out to be about 9m in length and 100mm wide.
i cut it into 4 x 2.25m lengths, and rolled up fairly tight, these fit nicely into my 2" column without restricting flow and don't move during a run.
howard
 
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:53 am
Location: perth
equipment: 35l brewzilla
2" modular CM
gin caddy
changeover element switch and voltage controller on brewzillas 1900w element.
5L glass boiler/glass leibig

Re: Dissecting my run to find my #%?! UP!

Postby B-Man » Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:45 pm

sorry im a little lost
what is your actual issue?

only getting 6L?
only getting 92%?
having 10L left in boiler???
having an overpacked column?
how long it took?


what were the 3 things you narrowed it down to? I only see one listed as running too much power....
B-Man
 
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:07 pm
equipment: keg 4" Bubbler

Re: Dissecting my run to find my #%?! UP!

Postby LikkerSheWillLoveIt » Tue Mar 16, 2021 6:27 am

Out of 6x25 litre washes, I will say I expected more, considering at 10% abv of each wash “theoretically” there should be 15 litres of extractable booze. I got 6. I know perfect world, best case scenario, planets aligning. I’m not saying I’m disappointed, I’m saying I #%?!ed it up. I set up tired and injured and did the run on 4 hours sleep, which leads to stupid mistakes.


The 3 things I narrowed down , too much power, over packed with scrubbers, copper “saddles” at the bottom causing restriction. Too much power I sorted that, too much packing (I shut down and removed some). Copper saddles, removed them too. Maybe the boiler was over full, I removed 10 litres of low wines from the boiler via the drain during the shut down). I still had 20 odd litres in the boiler when I finished.
LikkerSheWillLoveIt
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:16 am
Location: Tweed Heads. Northern NSW
equipment: Home made 50L keg boiler. PID controlled. Stainless Column dual valved reflux still.

Re: Dissecting my run to find my #%?! UP!

Postby BSC_Kilby » Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:34 pm

correct me if i'm wrong here.

You had 50L-sih @ 30% go into the boiler. You've figured that you were driving it too hard and shut down and removed about 30L-ish, leaving about 20L @ 30% in the boiler?

20L of low wines @ 30% give you 6L of absolute alcohol in the charge, right?
BSC_Kilby
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:04 pm
equipment: Big still

Re: Dissecting my run to find my #%?! UP!

Postby B-Man » Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:27 pm

LikkerSheWillLoveIt wrote:Out of 6x25 litre washes, I will say I expected more, considering at 10% abv of each wash “theoretically” there should be 15 litres of extractable booze. I got 6. I know perfect world, best case scenario, planets aligning. I’m not saying I’m disappointed, I’m saying I #%?!ed it up. I set up tired and injured and did the run on 4 hours sleep, which leads to stupid mistakes.


The 3 things I narrowed down , too much power, over packed with scrubbers, copper “saddles” at the bottom causing restriction. Too much power I sorted that, too much packing (I shut down and removed some). Copper saddles, removed them too. Maybe the boiler was over full, I removed 10 litres of low wines from the boiler via the drain during the shut down). I still had 20 odd litres in the boiler when I finished.


just smashing out a few rough figures.
after stripping the 6 ferments (not knowing the abv of each or how far you went) would give you about 13.5L of pure alcohol @10% (but could have been a stalled wash or 9% washes....)
running that again at about 33% assuming 45L into a 50L boiler and getting a 92% efficiency you would end up with about 12.5L of alcohol.
how far did you run the abv before you stopped collecting?
there's obviously still some alcohol left in the boiler and the 10L you took out when you stopped

over powering the column would create more reflux the side effect would be higher abv.... not less alcohol
over packed column would create unstable output
over filled boiler would cause a puking
the copper you added would create more reflux not harm the amount of alcohol produced.

the only thing I can think of is your ferments weren't 10%
you had less than 30% abv in the boiler
and or you have a vapour leak.

BSC_Kilby wrote:correct me if I'm wrong here.
20L of low wines @ 30% give you 6L of absolute alcohol in the charge, right?

yes, but when you pull alcohol out the abv in the boiler drops. so the 20L left in the boiler wouldn't have as much alcohol as it started with.
Last edited by B-Man on Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
B-Man
 
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:07 pm
equipment: keg 4" Bubbler

Re: Dissecting my run to find my #%?! UP!

Postby BSC_Kilby » Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:35 am

BSC_Kilby wrote:correct me if I'm wrong here.
20L of low wines @ 30% give you 6L of absolute alcohol in the charge, right?

yes, but when you pull alcohol out the abv in the boiler drops. so the 20L left in the boiler wouldn't have as much alcohol as it started with.[/quote]

Spot on @B-Man I hadn't read through carefully enough and had 20L as the remaining low wines charge after the 10L was removed.

Just putting what I think are the key bits of info in 1 place here.

I’m doing a spirit run on 3 stripped TPW’s in my inverted cone Boka. First time with stripped wash and I was running at full noise and I flooded my column. This was during the reflux stage, I had not taken off any product. The condenser was knocking everything down, but too much vapour going up, to ...


Hey folks. I’m trying to find the source of what I did wrong yesterday. I ended up with about 6L of of distillate around 92% out of a 150L TPW run that had been stripped. I removed 10L from the boiler, so I have those low wines for the next run. I set up on Friday arvo/evening, I set the alarm for 4...


Big rig, condenser was still knocking everything down. No vapour went out the top.


Too much power I sorted that, too much packing (I shut down and removed some). Copper saddles, removed them too. Maybe the boiler was over full, I removed 10 litres of low wines from the boiler via the drain during the shut down). I still had 20 odd litres in the boiler when I finished.


Also noting that we haven't heard anything about cuts. :think:

43L - 10L - 6L - 20L = 7L missing

I reckon you're onto it with your theories too @B-Man. The posts read like everything was worked on hot, given that the run happened about 3am and the HELP thread Likker started was at 5am, so probably lost a little bit of booze to evaporation taking off the column hot, but probably not something in the range of 7L. Seems more likely that we've got an incorrect read of ABV or incorrect volumes.

Any other sleuths got a theory?
BSC_Kilby
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:04 pm
equipment: Big still

Re: Dissecting my run to find my #%?! UP!

Postby LikkerSheWillLoveIt » Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:34 am

I’m not overly concerned with the amount I took off. The cuts I made were 200ml, it’s aired off since Saturday so I’ll be blending tonight, but everything I’ve got smells great.

I’m more concerned with finding out what I did wrong, I tried to salvage the run by tackling all possibilities at once, removed packing, lower voltage to boiler, removed 10L of charge from the boiler, and removed my copper “saddles” from the bottom of the column.

I guess my next run I will be leaving the copper saddles out and seeing how it goes.

2 questions:

1. What sort of head space do I need to leave in the boiler, for a spirit run after stripping and diluting to <40% ?

2. What wattage should I be throwing at the boiler, using on a 2” Boka for a spirit run? I do run LPG to help with heating, on this run I DID NOT use it as it was 3:00am and I wasn’t in a hurry. I was only using my 2200w electric element.

I think if I start with those 2 things I should be good to go.
LikkerSheWillLoveIt
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:16 am
Location: Tweed Heads. Northern NSW
equipment: Home made 50L keg boiler. PID controlled. Stainless Column dual valved reflux still.

Re: Dissecting my run to find my #%?! UP!

Postby BSC_Kilby » Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:39 am

I'm not convinced the packing is that much of a problem. Sure if there was no booze coming over, then I'd be worried. I'm presuming that you're making neutral from your TPW and that the high ABV is something you're after. I usually give the pot a fair bit of heat until it's sitting at about 55c and then back it off to about 1/8 - 1/4 steam and it has no problem driving 8 plates from there and sits very happily giving me 94%.
BSC_Kilby
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 1:04 pm
equipment: Big still

Re: Dissecting my run to find my #%?! UP!

Postby LikkerSheWillLoveIt » Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:57 am

So this is my Boka head. What was happening, was the vapour was pushing up the through the cone like a rocket! The condenser was knocking down everything and it was like it was boiling in the glass. No vapour went out the top.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
LikkerSheWillLoveIt
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:16 am
Location: Tweed Heads. Northern NSW
equipment: Home made 50L keg boiler. PID controlled. Stainless Column dual valved reflux still.

Re: Dissecting my run to find my #%?! UP!

Postby LikkerSheWillLoveIt » Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:00 am

Not sure if this will be a decent photo or not. Had to down scale a lot!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
LikkerSheWillLoveIt
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:16 am
Location: Tweed Heads. Northern NSW
equipment: Home made 50L keg boiler. PID controlled. Stainless Column dual valved reflux still.

Re: Dissecting my run to find my #%?! UP!

Postby B-Man » Fri Mar 19, 2021 6:41 am

LikkerSheWillLoveIt wrote:2 questions:

1. What sort of head space do I need to leave in the boiler, for a spirit run after stripping and diluting to <40% ?

2. What wattage should I be throwing at the boiler, using on a 2” Boka for a spirit run? I do run LPG to help with heating, on this run I DID NOT use it as it was 3:00am and I wasn’t in a hurry. I was only using my 2200w electric element.


1.
Enough not to puke.
I run 46L in my boiler, for my column, for my power usage with most of my mashes.
Rum I only run 36L as that loves to foam up. I wouldn't put a drop more in as its very close to a puke.

2.
what do you normally run?
I know a different design but when a ran a T500 that had a 2400w element for the column.
I haven't ran a boka before but for my bubbler I run it as hard as it can go without the abv dropping.
B-Man
 
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:07 pm
equipment: keg 4" Bubbler

Re: Dissecting my run to find my #%?! UP!

Postby LikkerSheWillLoveIt » Mon May 03, 2021 6:50 pm

Got it sorted on today’s spirit run. 3 stripped WBAB washes.

No copper saddles, 1200mm packed section with stainless scrubbers, only copper is the condenser, but I use the copper saddles in the stripping runs.

One element on a FSD controller and slowly heated up, 0630-0730 (0730 dropped to 125V on controller) then let it reflux for an hour 0730-0830. The first jar I took off 200ml 0830-0900 then slowly upped the take off until I hit 1.2L per hour at Jar #5 at 0949-0959.

Still going and I’ve upped the voltage to 140V still taking off at 1.2L/h. Approaching 12 litres.

I’ve been collecting at temperature checked at 20C +/- 0.1C at 95.3-4? For most of the day.

It smells like nothing, tails have got to be coming in soon.

I’m tired and ready for it to end now.
LikkerSheWillLoveIt
 
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:16 am
Location: Tweed Heads. Northern NSW
equipment: Home made 50L keg boiler. PID controlled. Stainless Column dual valved reflux still.

Re: Dissecting my run to find my #%?! UP!

Postby scythe » Tue May 04, 2021 5:36 am

Any rotten egg smell from leaving the copper out of the spirit run?
scythe
 
Posts: 1860
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:34 am
Location: Central West NSW
equipment: Dreaming of a 4" bubbler

Next

Return to Reflux Stills



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests

x