Dual (inner/outer) plated column design

[zombie]

Wow!!! Dinner, a quick smoke, and now to post.
Thank you all for the welcome.

The objective is to build a still that can produce 95% ABV in a single run. The part that makes this a unique design is the restriction I have placed on the units height. 80 inches! Including the boiler. LOL here!!!

My boiler is a 35 gallon stainless open top barrel that is currently my thumper for my pot still so the open top is perfect for switching between uses. I started off looking to build a Horizontal column design, and knowing nothing about how a fractional still works I quickly learned my concept was a few cards short of a full deck. (51 short) Sooo after many attempts to solve the problem of 95% in a reduced height column it clicked.
Column inside a column. A quick google gave me instant hope. I'll post all the info I found at the end.

The CAD's I drew are hard to follow (not for me tho) so I will just post them up with a basic overview to see if you all think this bird can fly.

Some of the rough numbers are off in the complete rig diagram. Same for scale. The idea is there tho.
I also have some different options for the outer column reflux coils. Like a doughnut shaped shotgun to sit on top of the outer column cap instead of inner coils.

All thoughts are appreciated! Thanks...

The first issue is getting into the inner column. I found I could go thru the modified center of a shotgun condenser. The vapor out of the outer column will be introduced above a re-boiler inside the bottom of the main boiler. The modification of the shotgun is insulating the vapor tube in, from the cooling effect of the unit. This is pretty easy with a few modified reducers, and some silicone sealed within.
You will see the vapor tube in terminates inside the re-boiler, and is partly submerged to maintain a positive pressure on the vapor. The pressurized vapor is released above the re-boiler into a packed section of the inner column. This will allow the continuous state of the outer column to be carried over to the inner.

If this makes sense so far I will scream from a mountain top!

I think this is a good place to leave off for now because if none of this is realistic, I don't need to waste your time with the rest. I appreciate everyone that has ANYTHING to say about the concept. I am here to learn.

[TheMechwarrior]

I'm lost for words!



Holy Shit!!!

[Geeps]

Wow!!! Dinner, a quick smoke, and now to post.
Thank you all for the welcome.

The objective is to build a still that can produce 95% ABV in a single run. The part that makes this a unique design is the restriction I have placed on the units height. 80 inches! Including the boiler. LOL here!!!

My boiler is a 35 gallon stainless open top barrel that is currently my thumper for my pot still so the open top is perfect for switching between uses. I started off looking to build a Horizontal column design, and knowing nothing about how a fractional still works I quickly learned my concept was a few cards short of a full deck. (51 short) Sooo after many attempts to solve the problem of 95% in a reduced height column it clicked.
Column inside a column. A quick google gave me instant hope. I'll post all the info I found at the end.

The CAD's I drew are hard to follow (not for me tho) so I will just post them up with a basic overview to see if you all think this bird can fly.

Some of the rough numbers are off in the complete rig diagram. Same for scale. The idea is there tho.
I also have some different options for the outer column reflux coils. Like a doughnut shaped shotgun to sit on top of the outer column cap instead of inner coils.

All thoughts are appreciated! Thanks...

The first issue is getting into the inner column. I found I could go thru the modified center of a shotgun condenser. The vapor out of the outer column will be introduced above a re-boiler inside the bottom of the main boiler. The modification of the shotgun is insulating the vapor tube in, from the cooling effect of the unit. This is pretty easy with a few modified reducers, and some silicone sealed within.
You will see the vapor tube in terminates inside the re-boiler, and is partly submerged to maintain a positive pressure on the vapor. The pressurized vapor is released above the re-boiler into a packed section of the inner column. This will allow the continuous state of the outer column to be carried over to the inner.

If this makes sense so far I will scream from a mountain top!

I think this is a good place to leave off for now because if none of this is realistic, I don't need to waste your time with the rest. I appreciate everyone that has ANYTHING to say about the concept. I am here to learn.

That must a been some kind of smoke :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[zombie]

Holy Shit!!!

That must a been some kind of smoke

Yeah! That's about what I was thinking... It's a crazy/easy idea. I just know too little about column stilling to be sure it will work. I'm the guy that thought Temp. separation would make hootch.

I just posted a flow Diag. (sucky drawing in MS Paint) on MD forum, and it may help here too.

[SBB]

The objective is to build a still that can produce 95% ABV in a single run.

The "keep it simple part of my brain" and my short arms and long pockets are wondering why build anything so complex when there are simpler still designs out there that will achieve the same thing.

[Yummyrum]

I like the idea from a thoeretical point of view... but it definitely aint a simple stil

I think it would lend itself to a continuous stripper rather well but you would need to further batch still to remove the heads.

The reboiler idea was boght up reciently by blondchap in his modified barbett still.I love this concept for interconnecting to parallel stills to lift the liquid :handgestures-thumbupleft:

I love the concentric design but constructionwise ,looks cumbersome and does not lend itself to easy dissasembly for cleaning or modifying. Personally I prefer the twin column aproach but this is more to do with keeping it as reusable modules and ease more than anything else.


Is the area of the 2.5" pipe similar the the area of the 8" - 2.5" .......just thinking about vapour speeds.

You wold have to get this right otherwise you may have insufficient boiler power to load the outer perf plates and at the sametime too mich causing flooding of tje packed section....that tjere is a very fine balance that I would be worried about when constructing this....once made very difficult to tweak.


Still...love tje idea let it happen

[Sam.]

My first thought is that if this does work in the end it will take a loooong time to stabilise and settle into the run properly.

Next is why need to put vapour into the middle column? Any problem it condesning in the shotgun, droppping down then spreading out to the column? But then again it may just vaporise again and go up and down.

Also with SBB, what is the desired outcome for this? If you are going to run it as a continuous rig you can kiss your cuts goodbye.

Interesting nonetheless :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Yummyrum]

Zombie....been going over this and your MD thread...finally got it .I think :think: .

Now I see what you are trying to do ....please ignore my previous comments other than difficulty of construction.

I thought that you were trying to feed the reflux from the inner back to the outer by reboiling and reconensing as a method of raising liquid via evaporation. Effectively having the two columns stacked.

I can now imagine there migjt be issues with getting it to stabalise as Sam says.Ideally you would be wanting to hold the packed column in full rwflux for normally half an hour before drawing off any thing so there will be a constantly varying amount of reflux at tje base of the inner column throughout the run.withoit constantly draining it off it might be an issue ....unless you feed it back to the top of the outer column

[zombie]

The objective is to build a still that can produce 95% ABV in a single run.

The "keep it simple part of my brain" and my short arms and long pockets are wondering why build anything so complex when there are simpler still designs out there that will achieve the same thing.

This is my FIFTH attempt at posting. Keeps timing out.
The reasons are simple. 1) I have a 7.5' ceiling height in my work shed, and I want to produce decent Vodka in a single run.
2) I love making mash, and getting great hootch as a reward but I hate babysitting a hot pot all day to do it. Even worse is running a product 2-3 times to get good results. Sooo I learned you need a very tall column to get one run Vodka.

That got me thinking horizontally. With my knowledge of fractional distilling at zero I quickly found that you need more than ideas to make a fractional column work horizontally. I could list the concepts but why embarrass myself further :angry-banghead:
Back to vertical... How to create the illusion of height, and retain volume? Column inside a column. :happy-partydance:

The only issue there is maintaining a constant working state of vapor within the two separate columns. I THINK I have solutions to that issue, and that is why I am asking for help. There are maybe a thousand years of combined experience on the forums, and I think making a 90+ inch column plus a 36 inch boiler fit under a 7.5 foot ceiling should be a walk in the park.

Understand I build boats rather than buy them. Brew hootch rather than buy it. Ride 70+ MPH 50cc scooters every day, and raise Presa Canario dogs as house pets.
Building a working still should be easy! Thanks SSB :-D

[zombie]

I like the idea from a thoeretical point of view... but it definitely aint a simple stil

I think it would lend itself to a continuous stripper rather well but you would need to further batch still to remove the heads.

The reboiler idea was boght up reciently by blondchap in his modified barbett still.I love this concept for interconnecting to parallel stills to lift the liquid :handgestures-thumbupleft:

I love the concentric design but constructionwise ,looks cumbersome and does not lend itself to easy dissasembly for cleaning or modifying. Personally I prefer the twin column aproach but this is more to do with keeping it as reusable modules and ease more than anything else.


Is the area of the 2.5" pipe similar the the area of the 8" - 2.5" .......just thinking about vapour speeds.

You wold have to get this right otherwise you may have insufficient boiler power to load the outer perf plates and at the sametime too mich causing flooding of tje packed section....that tjere is a very fine balance that I would be worried about when constructing this....once made very difficult to tweak.


Still...love tje idea let it happen

I believe it should function as any other plated still would. That is the goal anyway. I really have more learning on that but I am trying to keep the design true to existing columns, just in a new format.
As far as building, and maintenance I have that pretty well under control. The design is modular. There are three basic components...
The boiler/lower section of the inner column are one build.
The boiler lid/outer, and inner columns are another.
Then the top collectors, condensers , and inner vapor tube are another.
The only welding is the outer column to the boiler lid, and even that can be done with machine screws, and gaskets. The rest is all couplers, and gaskets where needed.

your point on differing boiler potential is very real. That is why I incorporated a condensing coil on top of the outer column. I should be able to control the amount of vapor output from the outer column that way... Unless I am mistaken on how that works. Any input ere is very much needed.
I did configure the dimensions of the columns to be roughly equal to help avoid issues here. Quick math gives me... 8 inch column with a 3 inch inside leaves 2.5 inch surrounding free space. 3 inch column with a .5 inch vapor tube gives me 2.5 inch surrounding.
All good I hope!

If I am wrong about the reflux condensers being able to control vapor speed/quantity then this is what I need to know. I do understand pressure management throughout the design is critical to achieving an equilibrium in the columns, and I am hoping reflux condensers, and tubing sizes can be manipulated to balance it out.

I do have plans for windows on both columns if this idea appears workable. Rather than round windows I have access to long rectangular strips of tempered glass. These can be easily framed into the sides of the columns but that is down the road a bit. :music-deathmetal:

[zombie]

My first thought is that if this does work in the end it will take a loooong time to stabilise and settle into the run properly.

Next is why need to put vapour into the middle column? Any problem it condesning in the shotgun, droppping down then spreading out to the column? But then again it may just vaporise again and go up and down.

Also with SBB, what is the desired outcome for this? If you are going to run it as a continuous rig you can kiss your cuts goodbye.

Interesting nonetheless :handgestures-thumbupleft:

Thank You S&L
With both boilers heating up at the same rate, I hope that will allow it to equalize at about the same rate as any other 90 ish inch column. Actually if you discount 16 inches for the reboiler section of the inner column is is closer to 74 inches of active length.

The idea of injecting vapor vs dripping condensate is gone over in the original designers notes. I have to post them for you all.
The idea is to maintain a continuous working state of vapor/reflux just as if this were one long column. Otherwise the interruption causes a resetting of all the prior work, and wastes that energy. Much the same as installing a shotgun in the middle of your standard plated column.

The only similarity to a continuous still is the fact I have to monitor, and remove spent wash from the reboiler. The only real purpose of the reboiler is to maintain a pressure head forcing vapor out further up the column, and creating heat energy to power that inner column.

Honestly, all of my other concepts were shot down in moments... I'm beginning to think this design has some merit.

Thank you very much for taking an interest. 8-)

[zombie]

Zombie....been going over this and your MD thread...finally got it .I think :think: .

Now I see what you are trying to do ....please ignore my previous comments other than difficulty of construction.

I thought that you were trying to feed the reflux from the inner back to the outer by reboiling and reconensing as a method of raising liquid via evaporation. Effectively having the two columns stacked.

I can now imagine there migjt be issues with getting it to stabalise as Sam says.Ideally you would be wanting to hold the packed column in full rwflux for normally half an hour before drawing off any thing so there will be a constantly varying amount of reflux at tje base of the inner column throughout the run.withoit constantly draining it off it might be an issue ....unless you feed it back to the top of the outer column

Thanks Yummyrum.
Balancing the tow columns to act as one my indeed be the challenge of the day in this build. there will re an overlap of time in the reboiler where the outer column is feeding Alch rich vapor, and nothing is being drawn off while waiting for stabilization.
There will also be another overlap when the rig is stable/running, and that Alch rich vapor is being replaced by spent wash from the inner column.

I believe the first issue can be solved by pre-charging the re-boiler with 70-80% ABV. That is roughly what I would expect to be going in anyway. With both columns in full reflux, and heating at the same rate i THINK initial flooding or over running of the inner column can be avoided..
If that sounds wrong Please school me. I a learning but still have a LONG way to go.

The second issue will more or less handle itself. As the Pre-charge gives up its Alch., and the incoming vapor from the outer column gives up its spent wash. Eventually there should be nothing but spent wash entering the re-boiler. A simple fitting thru the bottom of the boilers will allow me to both monitor, and drain as needed.

Again if anything is screaming out to be corrected please let me know. That's why I'm here

[bt1]

It's a interesting idea...we don't grow if all we do is repeat the same old designs week in week out :handgestures-thumbupleft:

A comfort zone is a trap for creativity after all and there's little of that going around currently.

Personally I would have thought a twin parallel column would have addressed the primary need without the complexity of the design you posted. It could be as clever as, depending on efforts/skills.

End of the day if your set on this design then give it a crack.

bt1

[zombie]

It's a interesting idea...we don't grow if all we do is repeat the same old designs week in week out :handgestures-thumbupleft:

A comfort zone is a trap for creativity after all and there's little of that going around currently.

Personally I would have thought a twin parallel column would have addressed the primary need without the complexity of the design you posted. It could be as clever as, depending on efforts/skills.

End of the day if your set on this design then give it a crack.

bt1

I appreciate that Bro! Like you say repeating the "same old" just cuts against my grain.
I've taken a pretty good bashing getting this far so there is no point in turning back now. :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[Sam.]

Only one way to find out if it's going to work....... Build the damn thing :handgestures-thumbupleft:

[zombie]

You remind me of my parenting method..." What are you asking me for? Just do it!!!" :))

Well there have been quite a few views on the thread, and some very reasonable questions brought up but nothing so far that shows it couldn't or shouldn't work. Maybe it is time to start cutting some metal...

My 8" column is currently sitting in the stern section of a 1979 75' Berger Yacht that was abandoned here. It's actually going to be cut from a new stainless marine exhaust system I fabricated 6 years ago (and never got paid for).
From party boat to party liquor. How's that for Karma!

[TheMechwarrior]

Karma is good, now...for the construction pics

[zombie]

Karma is good, now...for the construction pics

I agree I'll start cutting tomorrow, and post as I go.

Here is one page describing the column I took the model from. It is a very long page so I think it's better to link it.
http://www.google.com/patents/US4681661
There are some questions I have about plate angle, and spacing that are verry different from what I see on the forums but that can wait till I get to that part of the build.

Well here we go... Thank you guys for looking over the idea!

[zombie]

I had to clean up that flow chart, and of course I started day dreaming... I have been thinking of coils for the outer columns reflux, and it hit me!
A second shotgun. Since it is a dual column design... Dual shotgun.

The idea actually makes building the top collectors much easier, and the working control of the still should be easier to dial in. It was just a DUH moment.

Here are the flow chart, and a top/side view of the shotgun. I understand it may be hard to see these ideas as I do so ANY thoughts are appreciated. The dual shotgun idea was just so obvious I didn't see it

I cut my 8" stainless pipe to 32" for the outer column, and dug out the 3" copper pipe I had. Of course the 3" is in shorter pieces. (24" + 12") I think I'll braze those together, and start on the boiler/re-boiler section of the build.

[Mrs Mac]

Just read a few threads on running a plated still. Mac's on the 5 Star plated, and Brandons on running a plated.
http://aussiedistiller.com.au/viewtopic ... 117#p46591

Made me realize something... The outer column will produce foreshots that if released will have to rework thru the inner column, and smear everything stacked in it.
Two solutions. Let the fores pass into the inner, and re stabilize or install a tap at the top of the outer columns vapor tube, and collect fores from both columns at the same time but independent of each other. Running fore collection very slowly as per Mac's thread should allow the columns to maintain stability.
From what I am learning I believe the second solution is best.

Does this sound correct? Thanks!